I agree with John Robb completely. If you didn’t have a weblogs.com site you can’t complain. If you did and didn’t listen to Dave’s actual audio post on the subject you don’t have all the facts. If you did and aren’t happy feel free to be vocal because the whole situation sucks.
Just remember, it doesn’t just suck for you, it sucks for Dave too. He’s getting far too much flack. I wish I knew him better so I could send some ‘don’t worry’ emails without sounding pedantic and flat.
Edit: Comments closed, and many deleted. See this post for details.
June 18th, 2004 at 1:01 pm
Thanks Jeremy, I think we can do something about this. Next time Powers or Suitt or Sessum try to insert hysterics, we can swarm them with love, ask them to stand back until the problem is clear, to stop meddling and when there’s an outage, please please don’t get us Slashdotted. That was probably the worst part. The servers were basically dead because of the load, and add Slashdot to it, and I couldn’t even update my weblog. It’s only settling down now, finally.
I told Rogers that this time we’re not just going to brush it off and continue as if nothing happend. I’m going to have to deal with these people, and I’m choosing now to deal with them when they don’t hold the cards. If you want to help, let’s get a posse organized so when a response is needed it doesn’t just have to come from me? They’re going to keep attacking until they feel the heat coming back at them. No more taking it lying down.
Are you willing to help with this?
June 18th, 2004 at 1:23 pm
If those are the people who were writing such vitriol in those comments on Dave’s site… I’m all for it.
I was once threatened with death by some idiot in an email in a not dissimilar situation. It’s disturbing and outrageous.
Sign me up. If this is the place to do that.
June 18th, 2004 at 1:36 pm
Dave, of course. Whatever I can do to help. You’re obviously in a bad way and I know that in the past when I’ve been in a bad way, those I’ve known online have always stepped up 110%.
Sadly, I don’t know you yet, but I’ll do whatever I can in the meantime.
I’ll drop you an email.
June 18th, 2004 at 1:57 pm
No, I’m not in a bad way. I feel good. I feel like cleaning up this mess.
I think the right way to approach it is to:
1. Choose two or three of the leaders.
2. Read everything they wrote about this incident.
3. Highlight inconsistencies, things that aren’t true. Apply the same process they applied to my work, except without the sloppiness (no assuming things you don’t know).
4. Find out if they have the required background to draw the conclusions they do. For example, Sessum said I was a psychotic. (Probably other things too, I stopped reading her site when I saw her go off the deep end.) What was her claim based on? Is she a psychologist? An M.D.? Any history of mental illness in her background, in her family? (I did a simple search on one of the flamers and found he had a criminal record, he has been convicted of spreading viruses with his computer. There goes his authority to pass judgement. And all you have to do is search, it’s right there to find.)
In other words, next time this happens, let’s be prepared to respond to their mud with facts, have it be vetted before-hand, not seat of the pants.
If we could get this to happen, we’d definitely elevate the level of discourse in this community, get it out of Three Stooges mode. In order to get there, they have to be risking *something* if they make untrue allegations. That’s what I’d like to see happen.
June 18th, 2004 at 2:19 pm
Sorry Dave, it’s my Canadian / English background. Not entirely sure what the American equivalent would be, but anyways.
I’ve just gone through reading some of the bloggers you talked about, and to be honest I’m surprised you’re still blogging period. I’d be absolutely disgusted and be off on a sabbatical if I’d gotten that reaction.
Priorities are good.
So, I’m all for getting this cleared up. Not just for you, but for the health of blogging in general. Maybe I’m naive, but I think that bloggers (most of us) should be better than this kind of thing.
This isn’t Slashdot after all (which was fairly mild on this one… Imagine if you worked at Microsoft).
June 18th, 2004 at 2:20 pm
It is indisputable that the shut-down of weblogs.com was handled poorly. That the service was being provided for free is not relevant. Announcing the shut-down or the planned cut-over which could result in service disruption would have been simple. So would have been saying “Sorry”.
June 18th, 2004 at 2:24 pm
This whole situation reminds me that “change is an unintended request for anger”. Dave Winer is a “change agent” without peer and conflict comes with that territory. Go Dave! Stir it up… The shutdown of blogs.com is symptomatic of the “crossing the chasm” phase of a new technology. Blog services and most web services are transitioning to a funded service model. “Free” works to grow a community that stimulates adoption but eventually the community needs to fund the infrastructure or parts of it will decay through neglect or loss of energy… I must say that I get more value from
following Dave Winer’s ongoing conflicts than I do from most “standards” efforts when it comes to “what’s going to be important”. I can’t wait to see what Dave does next… I hope he DOESN’T retire from public life or fall prey to it’s pressures.
June 18th, 2004 at 2:28 pm
Let me ask you, though, what would it have changed? If Dave had given (as Halley ‘noted’) even 30 minutes notice, what would it really have changed? Also, from what I heard in the audio blog, it wasn’t as if Dave was gleeful about this.
I can’t really speak for him, as I don’t know him at all, but there are a lot of facts being ignored in this whole thing:
1. If you don’t backup your data, it’s your own fault (free or otherwise)
2. Notice wouldn’t have changed the level of outrage, only the content of it
3. Dave has been more than accomodating through this
It’s not like people are losing their content, being left high and dry or even having no choices. They’ll get their data, they’re being helped to transition in several ways (by several great folks, from what I hear) and ultimately Dave is doing more than he intended (it seems).
What’s the worst part of this, for bloggers? They need to find a new home, and will be down several days. As someone who’s had the same thing happen with paid hosting, you basically just move on.
I guess that’s part of my annoyance in this. Those who are being the most vehement, and those who are protesting the greatest don’t even have blogs at weblogs.com. Somehow, to me, this is like complaining about who’s President when you didn’t even bother to vote.
Again, though, I don’t speak for Dave, just that this whole situation is shameful to me as a blogger. If someone new to the blogosphere were to stumble on this (as many surely have) they would get an incredibly negative picture of who we are and what we’re about.
I dunno, the blogosphere I know is friendly, open and supportive (in general). If we can’t support people like Dave in spite of the situation, there’s something seriously wrong. We should be able to separte the person from the event.
June 18th, 2004 at 2:29 pm
Dave M: Agreed. Losing people like Dave (damn that sounds like idolism…) would be a ‘damn fool shame’
June 18th, 2004 at 2:54 pm
I’m posting this here (instead of in another entry) because some of the people Dave talked about in his original response to this post are linking here. Odd, but ah well.
Some of these people are saying things like “Dave doesn’t deserve any thanks for what weblogs.com became, the writers do”
…
Or “(It reminds me of when I counseled women while working at the Women’s Center in my early 20’s and listening to the ladies talk about how their men would hold them down and beat them, but it was all done out of love, and all that.)”
…
Or “Sorry Dave, no criminal record. Yes Dave, plenty of therapy, which I have wished for you for the longest time. ”
…
I guess I’m naive when I think this whole thing could have been handled in a more civil fashion. Picking our nose in public? Sure, that’s great when you’re trying to teach a lesson. It’s not when you’re actually trying to mature (anymore than pulling someone’s pants down to show them it’s bad to never change their underwear is a healthy way to motivate).
June 18th, 2004 at 3:06 pm
Jeremy, we’re going to have to ignore the obvious flame bait, and stick with getting some facts about these people.
June 18th, 2004 at 3:10 pm
Just starting up some email conversations with some of these bloggers. It’s amazing how level-headed they are when they aren’t on a platform
June 18th, 2004 at 4:57 pm
Dave, instead of trying to coax friends/acquaintances into waging a personal attack response, why not do the one thing that will end this whole thing in an eyeblink: apologize. sincerely. and not to your buds who now have to put up with silly chatter on their blogs about this. apologize only to the folk who got turned off without notice.
Really, that one simple act will generate instant LEGIONS of defenders. Right now I suspect it’s tougher going trying to rally the troops b/c in their heart of hearts they know you could (easily) have done better. An outright apology gives them the moral impervious armour to join the fray with abandon and overrun thine enemies.
True, advance notice (one showing a modicum of empathy) would not have stopped any and all nattering about the shutdown. You’ve unfortunately crossed too many swords too many times, and there’re enough deep-enders out there spoiling for any sort of fight. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have bothered.
At least it would rob detractors of any real energy and, again, would have spurred immediate response from friends. Right now the battle is for the hearts/minds of reasonable folk, not the pre-biased.
Apologize and get some deep rest ferchrissakes. Is it really that hard?
June 18th, 2004 at 5:07 pm
Ugh, just coming up for air, and you know what? I’m almost sick of the behaviour of people on both sides of the fence. Some of the key players, but some of the stunts I’ve seen on many people’s blogs leave me gasping for breath. Death threats by phone? Calling someone a cunt? I can’t believe real live humans are like that in someone’s “home”.
Gah.
I’ve got 2 calls scheduled for tonight, so we’ll see how I feel about this in the morning
June 18th, 2004 at 8:50 pm
Memer I have indeed apologized to the people who matter here, the users, not the flamers, who I wouldn’t give the time of day.
June 18th, 2004 at 10:16 pm
“I’m going to have to deal with these people, and I’m choosing now to deal with them when they don’t hold the cards. If you want to help, let’s get a posse organized so when a response is needed it doesn’t just have to come from me? They’re going to keep attacking until they feel the heat coming back at them. No more taking it lying down. Are you willing to help with this?”
Dave’s asking you to get a posse together to go after the girls, and ya’ll are saying nothing back to him? Wow. This feels like the 1940s but wired.
wshew.
Jeremy, I’m just the same on my blog as I am in email as I am in comments. I am 100-percent agenda free. And I call it as I see it. That’s what we do out here.
Jeneane
June 18th, 2004 at 10:38 pm
No it’s the 2000’s and you’re leading the lynch mob. If you apologize for the abusive things you did, that might help. And maybe you should have a talk with your famous therapist about this. You have a lot of anger Sessum and that’s okay, but you don’t deal with it well.
June 18th, 2004 at 11:15 pm
I tried posting this in reply to Jeneane over at her slutfest at JOHO, but am still banned from there:
~~~~~
“David, if you went to post today and found out your blog was gone, without any idea it was going to happen…”
Well, I’ll tell ya, Jeneane.
It’s like getting banned from commenting, for no valid reason other than that’s [the kind of person] YOU ARE.
It’s like going back and finding one-a the deepest articles you’ve ever written being vanished.
Probably this post doesn’t qualify, but it’ll probably be vanished anyway.
I didn’t read all the comments, but I’m fairly certain I could tell you what the posts say, just by reading the posters name.
Probably about.. oh.. what about 15 unique posters.. 94% is my guess.
You and your friends, Jeneane, are a real piece of work.
~~~~~
“Thanks Jeremy, I think we can do something about this. Next time Powers or Suitt or Sessum try to insert hysterics,”
Dave, this isn’t about women’s hysterics.
Get clear, whenever you can see your way clear.
This is about a “conversation” you and Jeremy Bowers had about the anatomical differences between the brain of the Male and Female of the Species.
You give them (and not all of them are Female) the opportunity to play the poor femme fatale, when they are just men and women with a fatal non-attraction. Just like Jeneane does above. Pretends to play the same-old same-ole “Po’ me” song, and your playing the same tune, Dave.
Forget about apologies, as it wouldn’t be sincere anyway from the likes of these, right? Learn and move on because you’re moving on whether you wanna or not, in actuality. (Literally moving.. I gather.. bummer…)-;
Knowhaimean, Vern??
June 18th, 2004 at 11:29 pm
Thanks JT. You’re a mensch.
June 19th, 2004 at 12:09 am
Hee hee. Yah, JT’s a real mensch alright. Ask anyone.
June 19th, 2004 at 5:27 am
It’s nice to see the same stalkers popping up everywhere. Patrick Breitenbach from PayPal (are they paying you to stalk? could result in an interesting lawsuit), Jeaneane “this is another 9/11″ Sessum (boy, will people remember your name forever), Shelley “I’m soo superior” Powers. Mark Pilgrim’s probably already contributing under an assortment number of aliases. Now we’re just waiting for Danny Ayers and Bill Kearney.
June 19th, 2004 at 6:10 am
About Danny Ayers, I don’t think so.
Here’s my take on him. Yes he’s abusive and persistent and stupid as dirt, but he wants something different, he’s not so much into humiliation, as he wants to control RDF, and hopes to do it through Atom. He wants to be sure RSS syntax doesn’t make it into Atom, because if it does, game over, Danny doesn’t get his name in the authorship credits. This has nothing to do with that, he’s been happily posting on the Atom-Syntax list all along. I don’t think he’s here.
Whoever said PB is Patrick Breitenbach is surely correct. I posted about this on the thread at John Robb’s. He works at Paypal, one of the founders, and is a very long-term flamer in the UserLand related sites. He doesn’t like anything we do, personal or technical. But there’s more to him, there’s a reason he doesn’t want to be outed. But I didn’t out him, others did, and that’s coool. Now it’s not just me. Thanks.
June 19th, 2004 at 10:12 am
I “lied”.. (Haven’t got my 2 pots-a-java in me, which is usually when I start waking up, due to severe Sleep Apnea.)
I wuz thinkin’ last night, the fact is..
..the actual pertinent data here is that it was largely reported you took out 3000 weblogs….
….but in actual fact, at the end of the day..
..in the final ana-lysis
it turned out to be a lot closer to 44.
Now, some would immediately say, but you didn’t see THIS comment or THAT comment or THIS hate or THAT hate.. Some would say you haven’t taken ALL THE FACTS into account..
..and I’d say, yeah.. but it’s still gonna be a lotta closer to 44 sites that were actually a problem.
Mebbe a few hundred, of which Dave handled 44 and the others could easily-a been handled.
:
So, was the MAIN point the breakage, or the attempt to break Dave, I ask.
:
Hindsight is 20/20, Dave. But you could-a cut the sites out for 2 days, and found these few dozen or hundred active sites, and turned them back on!! THEN you could-a made a plan. But that’s in hindsight.
People STILL would-a probably toasted yer tushy, ‘course, I’m fairly certain.
June 19th, 2004 at 11:01 am
“Why do I enjoy doing hateful things to people who never did anything bad to me? That’s got to be worth at least a few years of therapy right there.”
Well said, Dave.
June 19th, 2004 at 11:14 am
Ooops, I said Halley has the most to learn, but I meant most to lose.
Sessum, I think everyone who used to read your site got it — she’s a sick person, and that just attracts other sickies. Good luck to you and have a great life.